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19 years old. Homeschooled, then went to a community college instead of high school. Currently at Hampshire College. http://www.facebook.com/NamelessWonderBand http://myspace.com/namelesswondermusic http://youtube.com/namelesswonderband http://twitter.com/NamelessWonder7 http://www.youtube.com/dervine7 http://ted.com/profiles/778985

Friday, June 5, 2009

CONTROVERSY TIME: Abortion

Alright, so obviously, I am writing a blog post when I promised I wouldn't. So the deal is now: no Free Will Part 2 until someone makes a comment that get's discussion going.

There was a poll on FB that went like this:
When does a human's life actually begin? When should someone be considered a human being and enjoy the rights, freedoms and privileges as other humans?
- At the moment of conception
- At the moment the pregnancy is detected
- At the end of the 1st trimester
- Once brain activity has been detected
- At the end of the 2nd trimester
- Once survival outside the womb is viable
- Within one month of expected delivery date
- After the entire body is outside vaginal canal
- After the cord is severed and baby survives

So I was thinking of responding, but I realized my views were much too nuanced.
The question isn't when life begins, but when it is that that life assumes worth. Quite obviously a fetus is alive, as is bacteria. And we don't worry about killing bacteria.
Even with this distinction, I don't think a clear line can be easily drawn. The most I feel I can say with certainty is this:
At the moment of conception, the life has no particular worth;
Near birth, the life does have worth
In between the distinctions are very fuzzy.

Let's throw out one argument off the bat: the argument from potential. Often one will hear the argument "what if the child that's being aborted would've grown up to be Beethoven? Or Einstein?" Well, what if it had grown up to be Hitler or Stalin? Or for all we know it could've ended up being a miscarriage, or a stillbirth, in which case it wouldn't have grown up to be anything at all.
More fundamentally, this argument could easily be used to prove that it's wrong not to have sex when the woman has eggs ready to be fertilized. After all, if the eggs were fertilized, who knows what great things those children could accomplish? Ergo, by the reasoning used earlier, it is a disservice to humanity to not have sex. Reductio ad absurdum.
(If one brings in "God's will", it actually gets even more complicated, since then you have to bring in all the theological issues involving omniscience, omnipotence, and sovereignty.)

Therefore we can only reason in regards to what the embryo/fetus IS, not what it might be. And here is where the worth of it's life get's fuzzy. Because as I said before, we have no problem killing bacteria, which perform many lifelike functions that an embryo does not. And unless we're vegetarian, we're even willing to kill animals that have more sentient behavior than a newborn baby. Obviously the argument hinges on the fact that the embryo is "human", whereas the other things are not. Yet, this is not terribly different from one race of people saying it's OK to kill people of other races, but not members of their own race. Just as the color of one's skin is less important than their qualities of personality, so too whether one belong to the species of Homo Sapien is less important than their human-like qualities in determining whether their life has value (for the benefit of the doubt, I am making the assumption here that the value of life depends on humanness in some form--not necessarily a sound assumption [although I think it's necessary, more on that in another post]). For instance, if by some freak coincidence on genetics, if a chimpanzee was born with the mental abilities of an adult human, we would almost certainly say it deserved human rights, and also that it almost certainly had a soul. But then, how far do we have to go before we say it ceases to have these things? If it has the abilities of a teenager? A child? A toddler? A newborn? In fact, chimps do have abilities beyond those of a young toddler. Why, then, does the toddler have human rights, and a soul, and the chimp does not, even though their abilities are just as "human"? And why should we be concerned with the life of an embryo, but not a bacterium?

(This was written of the cuff, late at night, so I sort of rambled.)

17 comments:

Paul Oakley said...

At nearly 49 years old, I think that you got a lot of nuance going on for a 17 year old! More power to you! You've picked a difficult enough subject.

If you want an old man's opinion, I think all those questions, while an unavoidable part of the "debate," miss a lot. Nuance as you worded it. The simplistic question used to be asked, "When does life begin?" But the right answer was never given. Without going on and on, life began in the distant aeons of time. All life native to the planet began in that epoch. Current life on earth is all part of that same life that never ended. Sperm and egg are already alive before they join. Humans participate in life equally with our pets, wild beasts, the animals many of us eat for food, bacteria, and so on. What we think of as our individual lives are an illusion masking this reality from view: we are one. Our life began before we can even imagine it beginning.

Now that's the late night rambling of an old man. But I think it is integral to the whole ethical vision of how we interact with life in all its manifestations on earth. Including fetuses of our own species, but so much more as well. Until we broaden out the frame of observation, we might as well all be blind.

Keep on trucking! and Peace be with you.
--Paul

Dervine7 said...

I don't think individualism is an illusion, but that it is instead a question of what level you're viewing life at. If you get microscopic, it disappears, and if you're point of view includes the entire planet, it disappears, yet on the human level individualism very definitely exists, just as a computer program on one level is nothing but operations on bits but on another level is solving a Calculus problem ("Godel Escher Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter is all about this). Instead of denying one or the other level, we should recognize that they all exist interdependently. With this distinction, I am definitely inclined to agree with you.
By the way, I looked at your blog and saw a post about Role Models for UU Youths, and I meant to comment, but now I can't find it. Do you have its title?

Paul Oakley said...

That post is titled "No truer truth than comes by music" on my blog Inner Light, Radiant Life:

http://innerlight-radiantlife.blogspot.com/2009/06/no-truer-truth-than-comes-by-music.html

Of course, I agree with you that we experience our lives as individuals, but as the basis for an overarching philosophy of life which discussion of embryos and fetuses forces us into, I do believe the more important part is the the one we most often overlook: namely, my life is not a separate life from other life on this planet. At no point did I become a living being. I was living already in the life of our microscopic ancestors.

My form was yet to evolve. My unique DNA combination was yet to become possible. My consciousness and self-awareness still very distant. But as long as there has been life on this planet, my life has been in existence.

So with the imperfection inherent in language, and with no intention of negating the other levels you rightly point out, I think the abortion debate calls for the perspective that experience is individual (at least largely so) but life itself is communal.

Dervine7 said...

Thanks, I had already found it and commented.

So we can't ask the question of when life begins, but of when that life experiences itself as an individual human life, and the question then becomes how we decide what such an experience entails. Would you agree?

Paul Oakley said...

Yes, I would agree with that wording.

:)

Anonymous said...

regarding a comment before on the blog, this comment said that the God of Judaism, Christian and Muslim are the one and same. In fact that is untrue, the god of the Muslim faith presents terribly different ideals and beliefs from the Judaistic and Christian God. I have read the Koran, and the ideals and values are totally different!

Anonymous said...

ellor I wanted to comment about the thingy about the chimp being the same as a human or wateva. Soooo my only statement is that, if we gave chimps human rights, what the hell would they do with it!? we shoul give them protection from being hunted and cruelly kept, wouldn't a chimp if set free into a city steal to eat?! They don't understand the things we do, our brain is way more sophisticated, so please don't put an animal on our level!
: )

Anonymous said...

Abortion is just wrong! How could humans say when life begins or ends! to say that u don't believe in the death penalty, how could you say but you do belive in abortion!? That makes no sense to me at all!

Dervine7 said...

@ Anon: I was discussing a thought experiment wherein a chimp, for some reason, has the same mental abilities as a human. The point I was making was that we would probably consider that chimp to have the same rights and dignity as a human, therefore it is not whehther or not a creature belongs to the species Homo Sapien that is important, but what sort of mental abilities that creature has. Now, a toddler has about the same cognitive abilities as a chimp; a fetus has about the same cognitive abilities as an earthworm. So if we're going to protect the human dignity and life of fetuses, shouldn't we do the same for earthworms? (I have no easy answer for that question, by the way.) "Life" is on a continuum.

Dervine7 said...

@ The, uh, other Anon: My point is precisely that we CAN'T distinguish when life begins or ends: life, all life, is a continuum (that sounded a little more spiritual than I'd strictly prefer, but it gets at the basic idea). As I said:
"The question isn't when life begins, but when it is that that life assumes worth. Quite obviously a fetus is alive, as is bacteria. And we don't worry about killing bacteria."
Therefore "life" isn't the question: what IS the question is at what point we determine "life" to be "human life", a life that we as humans care about. The rest is covered in my previous comment. Again, I don't know the ultimate answer.

By the way, I'm opposed to the death penalty for the simple reason that it's pointless: it doesn't reduce crime. It's only purpose, therefore, is revenge: causing pain to someone so that the victims will feel better. Something which in many other circumstances is frowned upon (and is explicitly condemned by Jesus, incidentally); apparently unless it's the authorities doing it.

Anonymous said...

yeah but how could you compare a human with bacteria?!

Dervine7 said...

I'm not comparing a human with bacteria, I'm comparing a human embryo with bacteria, my point being that there is nothing but genetic differences that distinguish the two. And it seems that it's not whether something is genetically human that determines whether it has value as a "human being", or if it has a "soul", or would be valued by God (as evidenced by the thought experiment involving the genius chimp).

Dervine7 said...

By the way, I'm not claiming that I can define the point at which a embryo/fetus's life assumes "human" worth; what I am saying is whatever standard one uses in determining that point (which may be conception), that person should also use in regards to any other life form. To boil it down (while loosing some of the subtlety): regardless of whether or not one should be against abortion, I think anyone who is against abortion should be a strict vegetarian.

(by the way, I'm not a vegetarian)

Dervine7 said...

*subtleties

Anonymous said...

yeah but leave a fetus alone and it becomes a person! leave a bacteria alone and it stays a bacteria! I really don't see how ANYONE can justify abortion!

Dervine7 said...

"Let's throw out one argument off the bat: the argument from potential. Often one will hear the argument "what if the child that's being aborted would've grown up to be Beethoven? Or Einstein?" Well, what if it had grown up to be Hitler or Stalin? Or for all we know it could've ended up being a miscarriage, or a stillbirth, in which case it wouldn't have grown up to be anything at all.
More fundamentally, this argument could easily be used to prove that it's wrong not to have sex when the woman has eggs ready to be fertilized. After all, if the eggs were fertilized, who knows what great things those children could accomplish? Ergo, by the reasoning used earlier, it is a disservice to humanity to not have sex. Reductio ad absurdum.
(If one brings in "God's will", it actually gets even more complicated, since then you have to bring in all the theological issues involving omniscience, omnipotence, and sovereignty.)

Therefore we can only reason in regards to what the embryo/fetus IS, not what it might be."

Anonymous said...

i have n clue what ur saying! it's not that hard to understnad that a fetus and embryo are a person.